A real email conversation that took place last March 2009, between our blog and a Finnish gay activist. Names have been changed. Heikki= Gay Activist, Nicholas=Our blogWhoever can spend the time to read it, it reflects our theological views and it can lead to the sad conclusion that it is easier for a camel to passs through the eye of a needle, than a gay activist to understand where he stands, even if he claims to be a Christian.
Photo: Merciless US gay activist who uses his sexuality in order to manipulate the foreign policy of a whole country, and shows no mercy to nations who are facing difficulties and are in need of humanitarian aid, while himself expects mercy from others. Notice the gesture-symbol of devil at the background.
You sent me an e-mail message which made it perfectly clear that we have different point of view. I am not going to answer every accusation you have made. I just like to tell you that I did not join this movement because I want 'to enjoy [my] lust, hedonism and passion without any kind of shame or guilt'. I am convinced that accepting gays and lesbians as God has created them and opposing all kinds of discrimination is just right thing to do.
This is what I called shallow theology. Because it is obvious that God created only two sexes and not 3, 4, or whatever. God has not created obese and overweight people; God has not created people to be greedy, gossiping, lazy etc.
The idea of a God who is only "Good" and who is willing to accept our sins along with our person as a weak human being is absolutely New Age. Also the idea that we are not to blame ourselves about anything simply because "it is not ourselves to blame but our... DNA" is also a New Age idea. Also the idea that a Christian person doesn't even have to struggle with his thoughts, temptations, passions etc but abandons himself to them is also New Age.
The idea that the Absolute Truth of Christ and of the Church does not remain unchanged through the ages but it is subject to alteration according to the shallow morals and ethics of a mankind in decline, as if the Church is a Club or a Political Party that we make it what we want it, is also New Age. The idea that the signs of the times, God's anger for the destruction of Mankind are just nonsense and God can never be angry and this is why he gave us the "Rainbow" is also New Age. And so on.
The fact that you cannot understand that the issue is primarily, deeply theological and dogmatic and secondly moral is disappointing. Your gay movement does not deal with acceptance of the homosexual person but with the acceptance of homosexuality itself as a normal situation. It is the same with obese people: Accepting someone who is overweight without judging him is a Christian virtue. But this is a TOTALLY different thing than claiming that being obese or overweight is perfectly normal and even worse, promoting gluttony not as a sin but something to even be proud about.
And what is this racist "Gay pride" thing? What does a Christian have to do with it? Since when did PRIDE become a Christian virtue, instead of a passion? And since when the Church is fragmented according to race, sex, colour of hair, age etc so that you believe it is dogmatically correct to have special Church services for homosexual people? Is the body of Christ divided and fragmented?
If you cannot understand how serious fallacies are all of the above, then what can I say? You just let your sexuality lead your life into dark paths where from there is no way out.
Salvation comes from suffering and struggling. And while you have been given the opportunity to achieve it, instead of that you are working your loss. Not because you happen to be or you became homosexual but because you are trying to pass this to the society and even alter the Church dogmas so that you can enjoy this gay lifestyle which is far from being Christian in general, even if it were heterosexual.
I suggest that you left this group because what it really is is "blind men leading each other".
A true Christian homosexual takes his passion (the word passion in Greek is the same as suffering) as a cross that may lead him to salvation some day. But you have rejected that cross and you have turned it to “virtue”.
This is NOT the right way to be homosexual and definitely NOT the right way to be a Christian.
I hope one day you will understand. I feel sorry for all that's going on in the world today where nothing that has to do with sex is considered a sin and everything is allowed, even paedophilia.
Please repent, and if you cannot help yourself living as a homosexual and least do not live as a heretic. Because as a homosexual you can get saved. As a heretic, IMPOSSIBLE.
I am willing to discuss about my being a member of Yhteys-liike. But there is one problem: You do not seem to be discussing with me, but with a monster you have created. You are assuming several things about my thinking which are not true. I also have the feeling that you do not want to understand my point, before you reject it, because that you seem to fail to understand that I did not join that movement because I want to be accepted I join because I want to stop discrimination of other people.
I am sorry to say that you are imagining things that are not there, and one of them is imaginary discrimination or that I see you as a “monster”. You may not be a monster as a person but Yhteys is a Para-Christian cult, not only because it is presenting homosexuality itself as something to be even proud about, but because its theology is deeply problematic.
I personally not only see discrimination in Finnish society against homosexuals but it is the opposite: Homosexuality is massively promoted by the movie-star system, art, television, fashion etc. And in areas which are not dominated by homosexuality, homosexuals form their own strong lobby as freemasons and promote each other showing discrimination against people who are not homosexuals.
I believe you know that one homosexual manager is enough to be soon surrounded by other homosexuals or nice looking men for obvious reasons. And obviously those people are being promoted not necessarily because they happen to be more qualified than women or heterosexual men, but the main criteria are their homosexuality or their masculinity.
So nowadays, homosexuals are gradually taking over important positions. It is enough for a film to deal with homosexuality in order to win an Oscar, no matter there are better films or actors around. Should we talk about cases of gay bishops and priests within the church and how they are surrounded by gays or by lovers?
So what discrimination are you talking about? Against paedophiles? Or are we going to accept paedophilia soon as something normal? Because most gay pornography is openly promoting "hardly teenage hunks", "young boys" etc And as a matter of fact, this is what most gay activists really do either they don't realize it either they do: They try to pass the idea to children and teenagers, at the very sensitive period of their life when they are trying to discover or experiment with their sexuality, that being gay is ok and if they happen to have a homosexual thought or temptation then they are absolutely homosexuals and they should go for it. Our sexist and hedonistic society has no taboos and is trying to pass the idea to young generations that EVERYTHING about sex is allowed.
So how can you be a Christian and instead of promoting self-control, chastity, virginity, faithfulness and other virtues -I admit hard to follow nowadays- you promote free and uncontrollable sex with everything that happens to turn us on? And what about the bisexuals? Should the Church introduce bigamy so that they can get married both with a man and a woman so that they don't miss any... joy in life!
My friend, discrimination, judgment of other people and hate are condemned by the church no matter what. You might not like someone because he is homosexual, or black, or fat, or simply you do not like him without belonging to any minority. At schools even at church confirmation camps [rippileirit] we have the phenomenon of school-teasing [koulukiusaminen]. It is not only question of sexuality.
The true Church teaches us not to judge people but consider ourselves as the worst of all. There is absolutely no point at all to form sects and fragments within the Church just to deal with discrimination in general and even worse, with discrimination against a specific category. The fact that Yhteys is even organizing Liturgies and Church Services for homosexuals on an Ecclesiological, Liturgical and Theological aspect is a heresy. For me it is clear they do not do it to promote tolerance or fight discrimination but to promote homosexuality itself.
I am sorry to use very strong language which is very unusual by Finnish standards. But I do it out of love to the people involved because while they think they are doing something good and humanistic, in reality they are digging their own graves and they are dragging other people into them.
The Church is not a gay club. The Body of Christ cannot be fragmented according to our preferences and our desires. We are all sinners and leading a gay lifestyle is a sin too.
God will save us as SINNERS. It is when we ADMIT we are sinning that we have the chance to be saved. But when we pretend we are not, just like the Pharisee we will perish.
The idea that being gay is not a problem is theologically deeply PURITAN and CONSERVATIVE. This sounds crazy but I will explain why:
Puritans are pretending to be sinless or super correct. They promote the image of the sinless person who leads a perfectly normal life, just as the Pharisee. This often leads to neurotic situations because we do not earn our salvation for being sinless but with constant repentance and self-awareness.
This Protestant model, (which in reality is twisted spirituality) is too hard to reach by most people. And for this reason many people abandon the Church and Faith because it is impossible for the average person to be or pretend to be Mr. Sinless, who met Christ and sins no more.
Yhteys, in realty what is trying to do is not to introduce the idea that “homosexuals are humans, sinners and they might lead a sinful life maybe because they have no other choice, but God still loves them because they suffer and they struggle more than others”. Yhteys is trying to promote to a Protestant puritan society the idea that there is no problem being gay, that gay lifestyle is not sinful and gays are not sinning, and therefore they are not sinners just as heterosexual puritans.
Yhteys is the fruit of Protestant Puritanism and theology.
But I love my friends because they ARE of flesh and bone, because they ARE weak, they ARE sinners, they HAVE passions and they DO recognize their passions and weaknesses as such. They fall and stand. And dirty as we are, we turn to the Church and to Christ, so that HE will clean us and forgive us 70 times 7.
But when you pretend that there is nothing wrong with this gay culture, that you "are not sinning" and that you do not need repentance for what you are, it is THEN that you risk to find one day the doors of Christ shut, while other homosexuals who lived with their problem in repentance will be saved and live freed from the flesh in a State where people will not be getting married any more nor there will be men and women.
You wrote: “So what discrimination are you talking about? Against paedophiles? Or are we going to accept paedophilia soon as something normal? Because most gay pornography is openly promoting "hardly teenage hunks", "young boys" etc. And as a matter of fact, this is what most gay activists really do either they don't realize it either they do: They try to pass the idea to children and teenagers, at the very sensitive period of their life when they are trying to discover or experiment with their sexuality, that being gay is ok and if they happen to have a homosexual thought or temptation then they are absolutely homosexuals and they should go for it. Our sexist and hedonistic society has no taboos and is trying to pass the idea to young generations that EVERYTHING about sex is not allowed.”
Are you really arguing that there is not a big difference between openly homosexuals and paedophiles? Because if you are, then you are saying that people should fear homosexuals and treat them as criminals.
Homosexuals in general, who live their sex life in privacy just as anyone else of course not. Do you believe I don't happen to have homosexual friends, colleagues, friends and so on? Also there are people that we guess or we know that they are homosexuals But who cares? The live a dissent private life. Sexuality is a PRIVATE issue and not something to show off. Because I happen to have 4 kids should I start being proud that I am a super lover and a sex machine? That would be ridiculous!
But homosexual ACTIVISTS, and not just homosexuals, are NOT promoting tolerance for what they are, but they are promoting homosexuality ITSELF, educating their future lovers.
Back in 1980 somewhere in Greece, in a village called Duneika, there was a huge scandal for weeks on the newspapers: In this village, younger adults introduced little by little to homosexuality the younger ones, teenagers and so on. The young boys discovered their sexuality through homosexuality that was introduced by older guys. Soon the majority of the village boys had some homosexual experience and the place became as Sodom and Gomorrah.
When this was discovered it was like a bomb! Angry parents where trying to discover who the guys who introduced their kids to homosexuality were. There was no rape or something like that. It was like the poisonous apple of the Snow-white: Try this and you will see it is good. In the end the adult ones ended up in prison while the under aged boys and teenagers had to visit psychologists etc, because once they have been introduced to homosexuality their sex life was ruined.
What gay activists are trying to do is exactly this: Turn the society to Duneika village and a gay club. Ruin innocent kids. And because of this, they are dangerous and criminals.
When we sin, or we have some weakness, or name it a "choice" if you like, it is ok as long as we tell others "sorry, this is my life, I cannot help it, please don't judge me or criticize me, but don't take my weakness as a model." But nowadays gay activists present homosexuality not only as a weakness, but something to be even PROUD of and make a show of it in parades! This has NOTHING to do with respect or dignity of a person as a fallen image of God. This is the "presentation of Satan as an Angel of Light".
And I had a younger friend who is a member of Yhteys. I knew since many years ago that he was homosexual by gay porn traces in my computer when he was my guest. I never told him a word till he told it to us. We never rejected him; we spoke to him about this cross he is carrying. Because he was a student I offered him part-time job in my business and he was also baby sitting my older kids. Once on a trip we even shared the same bed without my being "afraid" of him.
When my little son was born after my girls, he said seriously to me with a sad look: “And please, no Barbies any more otherwise he might end up like me...” Or some other time when he became a member of a cultural group, when I asked him about it he told me, “one thing I didn't like there, is that this group is full of gays, almost like a gay club”. And I knew he was an active gay himself. But at least he was living it the right way.
But from the moment he moved to Helsinki and got involved with a. deluted pastor, member of Yhteys, instead of helping him he has ruined him! He made him believe that there is nothing wrong and he has now become like a gay slut while at the same time he works in a Christian parish in Helsinki. And no matter the he has never been rejected in his parish or church, he entered Yhteys and now he is totally ruined. Knowing him before and after, I can positively say that he was spiritually RUINED by Yhteys. I cannot do anything else for him but pray, because he had salvation and he lost it to ecumenist gay liturgies, or by going to bed with other "Christian gays" in his parish without any guilt and shame.
My objection for Yhteys is that it is the introduction of the worldly spirit, of sin and of heresy into the church liturgical life and Christian ethics, which is not only unnecessary - theologically speaking - but it is ruing homosexuals turning them from humble and sinful tax-collectors who DO have a place in the Kingdom of God, to "sinless" Pharisees who make themselves believe that there is no reason for them to repent about anything that they do.
Irresponsible sex is definitely a sin. But I do not see that the difference between responsible and irresponsible sexual behaviour has anything to do with the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. Both homo- and heterosexuals may live dangerous sex life. Both may hurt their partner. Both can commit sex related crimes.
I simply fail to see any sin when two homosexuals want to live together and take care of each other. To put it other way: Which is more responsible: A gay establishes committed relationship with an other gay; Or a gay tries to live like a heterosexual and marry a woman?
You know better than me that the gay movement is not about committing oneself to another person but to enjoy free sex, as much as possible and with everyone we happen to see in the street. Given that gays have a super active libido, their whole life is consumed by this passion. Quite often all their choices are made by the sex factor. The average homosexual does not behave as discretely as the average heterosexual. Some homosexuals or rather, many homosexuals lead a provocative life. They talk dirty, they have their own language which is all about sex, and sometimes they try to imitate a feminine lifestyle which is more provocative than women themselves. Their sex-life is an OBSESSION.
And if you believe I have made up wrong impression about gays, well, while TV series “Sex and the City” refers to gays in a way not at all discriminating, however it shows the true profile of gays and how for the vast majority of them it is impossible to commit themselves to just one person but the name of the game begins from a one-night-stand to as many lovers as possible to have fun.
And when the gay movement is mostly about sex and a sexist way of life, what on earth has a Christian to do with it, no matter he is homosexual. Instead of fighting against the sexist spirit according to which everything is allowed with no restrictions, are we introducing it to the church?
I wrote once an example: Adultery is a sin. However there are many cases that people are lead to adultery for very serious and excusable reasons: One person is abandoned by his spouse, another one has a spouse with chronicle serious illness, another one is being refused sex by his spouse, another one is absent for long periods. Eventually, some who are unable to overcome human nature they commit adultery.
The Church understands, forgives, and shows tolerance. It even covers sin. In true theology the adulterers are not publicly exposed inside the Church as Puritan and Protestant theology has introduced, (and this is why in Finland for example there used to be special seats at the front of the Church so that sinners will be publicly exposed), while in the orthodox Church and the Roman Catholics the character of confession is strictly private. However the Church cannot stop believing that adultery is a sin, a human fall, despite the fact that the person who commits it is not always responsible.
The same applies with homosexuality. Not all homosexuals are responsible for what they are. However they ARE responsible for the way they deal with their homosexuality. We cannot easily and mercilessly condemn the homosexual person, Christian or not, however the Church cannot stop saying and repeating that homosexuality is a human fall and a distortion of human nature in the same way that e.g. the Dawn syndrome, or autism are distortions of human nature.
But here we are dealing with the phenomenon of presenting homosexuality as something that "God created" and that it is something as normal as man and wife relationship, which is presented as a model for the Church and Christ, while homosexuals are talking about “Christ and Christ” and “Church and Church”. Theologically speaking this is even a blasphemy and a heresy because marriage is presented in the Bible according to the model of Christ and the Church.
And then we should examine the roots of homosexuality. Because in many cases the reasons why a person is becoming homosexual are deeply spiritual and have nothing to do with "DNA" trash and the artificial cult that "homosexuals are born like this". The example of Duneika village as well those cases of people who became homosexuals in prison, or those who became homosexuals because they have been introduced to this practice by an adult are enough to prove that in most cases you become a homosexual.
Indeed in many cases the suffering person is not responsible for this, but how about those cases however that the person IS responsible:
For example when someone has experienced everything about sex and homosexuality is the... missing "gem" from his “collection”. How about those who experience a hedonistic lifestyle? How about those who enter in to this gay lifestyle out of ambition (e.g. artists, actors, singers) who in order to be promoted by the right people they practise homosexual fornication and of course they end up homosexuals. This is called "gay mafia" even by homosexuals, but you don't enter the gay mafia unwillingly.
And let's go deeper to this: How about those who are so much fond of themselves and of their body and they become homosexuals out of Narcissism towards their own body (E.g. macho gays who spend hours at the gym)? How about those who are self-centered enough so that they do not want to approach the opposite sex because this will take them out of their program and life-style? How about who believe that the opposite sex "does not understand" them and they become over-sensitive and afraid to experience rejection, and this over-sensitiveness in reality it is the egocentricity that "nobody understands ME" (this is mostly the main spiritual reason for lesbians) etc.
I understand that there can be many other factors that a person becomes homosexual (inferiority complex and low self-esteem due to a not so attractive appearance, rejection from mother of father, lack of presence of the same sex at home or the contrary an awful example of paternal or maternal prototype) etc.
For this reason we cannot easily judge people about why they have become this or that. However since it is obvious that there are in many cases SPIRITUAL ROOTS in homosexuality, we cannot consider everyone who is homosexual as "innocent" according to the trend that gay activists try to pass.
And when we are talking about a homosexual Christian the person has to search deeply to find out how WHY he is a homosexual and IF there are spiritual reasons behind that.
In any case homosexuality cannot be considered as a normal practice but accepted with tolerance as a "natural" one, only because human nature is FALLEN, and NOBODY is exception to this rule.
If you want to work your salvation then you won't do it with Yhteys movements and the alike. You have to struggle to gain it. Because another Protestant myth that has ruined many people is "I believe in Jesus therefore I am saved" while in fact the truth is "I believe in Jesus and I am struggling for my salvation till the day I will close my eyes on this earth."
All these pro gay movements, peace movements, ecological movements etc before Christianity -that has the answer to all- are secular trash. They are symptoms of a society who tries to be Christian but without Christ. The salt without saltiness in a rotting world, And what I see with great sorrow, is the SECULARIZATION OF THE CHURCH, with a WORLDLY spirit that blows off the flame of the Holy Spirit.
you wrote: 'you know better than me that the gay movement is not about [committing oneself] to another person but to enjoy free sex, as much as possible and with everyone we happen to see in the street. Given that gays have a super active libido, their whole life is consumed by this passion. Quite often all their choices are made by the sex factor. The average homosexual does not behave as discretely as the average heterosexual. Some homosexuals or rather, many homosexuals lead a provocative life. They talk dirty, they have their own language which is all about sex, and sometimes they try to imitate a feminine lifestyle which is more provocative than women themselves. Their sex-life is an OBSESSION. '
This is exactly what I meant when I wrote: 'You do not seem to be discussing with me, but with a monster you have created. You are assuming several things about my thinking which are not true.'
How do you know what I do know? You do not. What you know about those homosexuals I know? Maybe you know one or two of them by name. I do not know a single homosexual who lives the way you describe. You might call me heretic, if that is your opinion. You might call me ignorant, if you think that that is true. But you may not let anyone to understand without any evidence that I support the movement which according to my own knowledge is irresponsible and that I purposely give wrong expression about it. That is not only an improper way to discuss, but also against the word of God: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.'
Society and the Church do not make laws and rules for the good ones but for the bad ones. Otherwise there shouldn't be rules at all and laws at all. Not the average person has killed a man but the laws against carrying weapons are intended to those one who are dangerous for the society. Not all people steal but the laws and security companies exist for those who steal.
All this Yhteys stuff and the pro gay movement are organized by the evil guys no matter you cannot see it. And this is because we usually cannot be the right judges of ourselves and this is why through confession we have a third person see within us since we might believe ourselves to be holy while we are wicked.
I do not know if what I wrote is true or not about YOURSELF, but I DO know and I am sure that it IS true for the average homosexual (maybe not of YOUR environment) and it is the RULE for homosexuals who are activists. There are in Greece two international homosexual "centres", Mykonos for Gays and Eressos for Lesbians and I have seen with my own eyes what is going on there. Homosexuals have rotten the place turning the local society into a centre of corruption where everything is allowed. They have turned the place Sodom and Gomorrah and you are talking to me that "homosexuals are not as I described"?
If I sound too conservative to you than you can watch more of "Sex and the City" to see what homosexuals believe about themselves. You think that I am a fool and I have not entered gay blogs (when they were about to pass a law that allowed gay marriages in Greece) to see the language that they use, the issues that are discussing between them, etc. Actually the majority of gays who have a blog their only concern is about sex, how to get laid etc.
It may not apply to YOU, but it applies to the majority. And from the moment you decide to participate and even worse to REPRESENT such a group, you REPRESENT ALL GAYS, even those who are rotten. And God will ask from YOUR head their actions and activities not only because you represent them, but also because you JUSTIFY their sin.
If you want me to discuss on a personal level, then resign from Yhteys, represent only yourself, find your own spiritual way to reach God and forget all that rubbish who promote a sinful life in the society as well as within the Church.
And If you cannot understand what I am saying what other proof do you need that the world-theory, the mindset, the lifestyle and even faith is all around their sexual disorientation that like a black hole is consuming themselves and their salvation.
Get away from all that and save yourself. Because if you remain there where you stand, one day you will have to give an account to God not only for your OWN sins but also for the sins of others.
“Do not all be teachers, my brothers, because we teachers will be judged more hardly than others” (James 3:1)
Because now, you are playing the role of the Gay Messiah whom the universe has been longing for millennia to teach the world and Christianity that "being gay is ok". For every person that you might ruin with these false teachings his blood will be demanded from YOUR head.
Just give me 1% chances that I am right and take your risk. However, one day before Christ you won't be able to say "nobody warned me".
PS. If you still do not want to see the truth about the gay cult, gay ethics and gay morals, I have no problem forwarding you photos and discussions from gay parades, gay websites and gay blogs.
you have given me one more reason to join Yhteys-movement: You have shown me how to be unfair to minority, how give false accusations based on wrong generalisation, and how to distribute hate against homosexuals. I think that we should conclude this discussion with an agreement: Each one of us will answer what he has done and what he has not done in front of God.